Hey everyone —
I’ve been deliberating for months — nah, years — about whether or not I should open the books to my rental property business, giving everyone a behind-the-scenes look at all the numbers.
Getting financially naked is scary. But I think it’s necessary.
As much as this terrifies me — What if my tenants read my blog? — I’m feeling a sense of civic responsibility.
Almost nobody on this planet writes about real estate investing with radical transparency. Plenty of people extoll the virtues of real estate, but nobody opens up their own books.
Let’s change that.
There are many negative misconceptions about rental property investing:
- Your tenants might trash your place.
- You spend all your time fixing toilets.
- Your insensitive friends call you a ‘slumlord’ no matter how nice your properties are.
Sketchy get-rich-quick real estate gurus on late-night TV counteract those fears with hype and over-promises:
- You’ll be an instant zillionaire!
- If your rent covers the mortgage, you’re set!
- Drinks for everyone! This round is on me!
The truth? It’s not as bad as the Naysayer Brigade fears. It’s not as good as Sketchball Late Night Gurus claim. Reality is balanced in the middle.
By opening up my books, I hope I can demonstrate the real-life inner workings of this business.
The other day, I read a comment written by some idiot on Quora who obviously has zero experience with real estate investing. He posited the usual fear-monger arguments: “I’m a renter, and my landlord just replaced our HVAC. That wiped out a year of profits. Oh, and the guy before me spilled bleach on the carpet.”
These intellectually lazy arguments detract from the discourse. They cherry-pick examples without framing them into a comprehensive context.
My goal is to provide that context.
Of course, money is half the story; time is the other half. In addition to tracking and reporting my income, I’m also sharing exactly how much time we spend on this business.
Just how passive is this — as measured by hours, please?
C’mon Paula, Please Cut to the Chase
Here’s what I’m trying to say:
“Hey there. My name is Paula, and I run a small rental property business.”
“Here’s my exact income. Here are my expenses. Here’s how much time I spend on this project.”
“Review these facts. Then decide for yourself whether or not this path is for you.”
With that said, here’s my report for October 2015.
The green bar represents income; the red bar represents expenses.
Gross Income: $9,676.87
Expenses:
- Mortgages: $3,524.83
- Repairs: $50
- [Pending Expenses: Lots; see comments below.]
Net Income: $6,102.84
Total time: 3 hours.
How Did We Spend That Time?: My partner happened to be in Atlanta when he received a text message from a tenant, saying there’s a squirrel in the attic. He spent three hours chasing the damn squirrel before he realized he needed to hire a professional. We’ll pay that bill next month.
Hourly Rate: $2,034.28 per hour
Comments:
- This is an unusually good month. You won’t see this again.
- This month is so good, in fact, that I hesitate to start publishing reports now. I don’t want to create wild expectations. Keep reading these reports; you’ll see the roller coaster.
- We didn’t handle any renovations or repairs this month. (We spent $50 on squirrel traps).
- Because it’s October, we’re in that maintenance sweet spot: No lawn mowing, but too early for gutter cleaning. You’ll see more maintenance in coming months.
- We own a couple of houses in cash; we don’t pay monthly escrow for those properties. You’ll eventually watch us pay a full year’s worth of property taxes and insurance in one big check. That’ll make the monthly report look Shakespearean-tragic.
- We’re in the process of switching the payment structure on the loan for House #3 from a semi-annual to a monthly payment basis. In October, we didn’t need to make a payment for that house, but you’ll see future months with higher expenses reflected for that property.
- Property management expenses (when applicable) are deducted from the top-line gross revenue. (The top-line is after management fees.)
This is my first Radical Transparency Report, so nobody’s asked questions yet. But here are the FAQ’s that I imagine y’all might ask:
Q: “That’s not much.” // “That’s a lot.”
A: Um, that’s not a question.
But in seriousness, I understand what you’re saying. I’m betting that some readers will think this sounds like a hefty sum; others will think this isn’t much, relative to the upfront work it took to get here.
I encourage you to read these reports month-after-month so that you can get an idea of long-term cash flow. (One month is too short of a sample size.)
After that, you can decide for yourself whether or not it’s worth your time and energy.
Q: “Are most months this easy and lucrative?”
A: Nope. October was uncommonly good. Keep reading to get an accurate picture over the long-term.
Q: “How much work did it take to reach this point?”
A: Massive amounts. There’s a substantial learning curve associated with finding, buying and renovating properties, followed by hiring a team.
It’s taken me five years of trial-and-error, plus a lot of reading and mentoring, to reach this point. I’m sharing this with you in the hopes that you can learn from my experience.
Think of this as me giving you a five-year headstart. 😉
Passive income isn’t free money. It’s characterized by working hard upfront so that you can enjoy rewards in the future. In that regard, it’s the opposite experience of those scam-o-rific late-night guru claims.
Q: “Is this your primary source of income?”
A: Nope, most of my income comes from providing content marketing services for small to mid-sized businesses.
In 2010, I began full-time freelance writing. Over time, these writing services morphed into full-scale turnkey content marketing packages. I added clients; I hired a small team; I watched my profits grow.
I aggressively saved that income like a maniac on crack, dumping this cash into creating a rental property portfolio. That’s the portfolio you’re seeing today.
Q: “Okay, how much do you make in total?”
A: Sigh. One of the drawbacks of opening up my books is that I’m inviting If-I-Give-A-Mouse-A-Cookie Syndrome.
Once I reveal part of my income, people start wanting to know ALL of my income. And my credit score. And my weight. And do I prefer paper or plastic?
I’m happy to share real-estate-related numbers so my readers can decide whether or not rental investing is worthwhile. But I don’t see any educational value in sharing unrelated numbers.
There’s a fine line between educational content vs. financial porn. I’m not interested in becoming the Hugh Hefner of finance. Deal?
Q: “Taxes, taxes … some question about taxes?”
A: When I replace a roof, windows or appliances, I can’t write-off the expense during the year it’s incurred. I have to depreciate those items over their IRS-approved lifespan. “Profits,” in the tax sense, are different than cash flow. You’re reading a cash flow report.
Q: “I’m out of questions.”
A: That’s okay, you’re a figment of my imagination anyway.
Q: “Well, you’re rather unimaginative.”
A: Dammit, now my own mind is trolling me.
I don’t always hang out at the equator. But when I do, I’m upside-down.
What’s Next?
I’m going to use this Radical Transparency Report as a chance to share general behind-the-scenes updates:
Airbnb: I’m no longer running The Airbnb Experiment; I converted that unit back to a long-term rental when I moved from Atlanta to Vegas. I wrote an article that shares the final wrap-up, including all the numbers and lessons.
I meant to publish that final Airbnb Report months ago, but I’ve been distracted by my insane travel schedule. Speaking of which …
Travel: This month I visited San Diego, New York, Ecuador and Colombia. Yes, all during the month of October. It’s exhilarating, but also exhausting.
My excursions to San Diego and Colombia were purely for fun, laughing with family and friends. I traveled to New York and Ecuador ostensibly for “work” (speaking gigs), but those these trips were so awesome that it feels silly to refer to them as anything other than sheer playtime, with an occasional burst of productivity thrown in.
When I was younger, I traveled for the sights, sounds and smells of my new surroundings. But as I’ve aged, I’ve discovered that the most meaningful aspect of traveling isn’t the setting; it’s the people. I could care less about traipsing through some Ecuadorean jungle; the real magic comes from hanging out with two dozen blog readers around a lukewarm hot tub.
I’ve spent less than 7 total days at home this month; I’m publishing this blog post from the Bogota airport.
While I love the nomadic lifestyle, everything’s best in balance. I’m anticipating home sweet home this November, where I’ve made strict plans to indulge in some hard-earned nap time.
Course: Under works! I’m more excited about this project than almost anything I’ve done recently. Hop on the VIP List to hear early announcements about the release, and get special access to pre-launch goodies.
By the way — While I’m starting this month’s real estate income report on a strong note, I want to re-emphasize that (1) it took a bunch of work to get here, and (2) not every month is this awesome. I’ve repeated this several times, but hey, here’s one more for the road.
Aaannnd … That’s all, folks! Thanks for reading all the way to the end. If you have any questions, please feel free to drop these into the comments.
UPDATE: Real FAQ’s!
Update Oct 29, 2015 and Beyond: Wow — what an awesome discussion in the comments section! Here’s a response to real FAQ’s that I’ve heard from several readers:
Q: “How many properties and/or units does this represent?”
A: I own 7 units across 5 properties: one triplex and four single-family homes.
Q: “Can you break down this income by property?”
A: Sure, here we go:
- Triplex, Unit 1: $2,750
- Triplex, Unit 2: $1,490
- Triplex, Unit 3: $1,295
- House #2: $482.03 (reflects higher property management fees this month due to re-signing of lease)
- House #3: $1,273
- House #4: $1,500
- House #5: $886.84 (this property tends to have irregular monthly numbers due to late fees, etc.)
Total: $9676.87
Q: “What accounting software do you use?”
A: You’re seeing screenshots from Less Accounting, which I used at the time. I have now switched to using Quickbooks Online for real estate, but if you run a small business, you could also check out Freshbooks.
Q: “How do you organize receipts, etc.?”
A: All checking account deposits, credit card expenses, etc., automatically get pulled into the bookkeeping software.
If I have any physical receipts, I’ll scan these and upload them into a Dropbox folder, labeled “Real Estate Shoebox 2015.” If needed, I’ll also upload these into my bookkeeping platform.
One HUGE passive barrier is using poor-quality equipment, like a flatbed or weak all-in-one scanner, which requires you to feed receipts and documents excruciatingly slowly. This scanner is lighting-fast, rarely jams, and feels like you can feed it a pile of crumpled trash and still get clean scans on the other side.
Q: “Can you retroactively share the past 1-5 years of financial data?”
A: That would be a gigantic pain-in-the-ass, due to the following factors:
Factor #1: Blurred Lines from Living in the Triplex
One of the reasons I waited until now to start reporting the data is because we lived in the triplex until July 2015. That makes the accounting messy.
Under normal circumstances, people would simply use data from 2/3rds of the triplex, noting that we occupied the other 1/3rd. But to complicate matters, we lived in the triplex with roommates, so really, we occupied — maybe 1/8th of the building? Or 1/9th of the building?
And should that be measured by dividing the number of bedrooms in the building, or is it measured proportionately by square footage?
What about home maintenance costs — what fraction of that rightfully should come from our own personal pockets, and what fraction should be included as operating overhead? How about shared utility costs, like water?
Our CPA figured this out from a tax perspective, but like I said, taxable profits are very different from actual cash flow.
Given these variables, and given how “sloppy” the math becomes when you’re living in part of the home (and thus consuming the opportunity cost associated with not renting that portion of the home to a paying tenant), I decided that I couldn’t accurately display information about our numbers while we’re living in the triplex.
The best way to report these numbers to the public is by first creating a clean division between “personal” and “business,” by moving out of the triplex. This allows 100% of the income to come in the form of cash (rather than coming in the form of a “free place to live,”) and 100% of the expenses to be pure operational overhead. In short, it makes the numbers simpler, cleaner, and easier to make an apples-to-apples comparison.
That’s why I’ve chosen to start disclosing numbers effective now, and that’s why any data that I’m choosing to share with my readers will start on this date and extend into the future, rather than the past.
Factor #2: Reconciling Different Bookkeeping Methods
In 2015, we switched our accounting software to a new platform, which is the data you’re seeing above. Creating the cash flow reports for this series is incredibly different than tax accounting that we’ve done in the past.
Retroactively scanning through all of our files, and trying to square our tax-accounting-data with this new style of cash-flow-data, would require dozens of hours of additional effort.
I believe my readers will get sufficient benefit from seeing monthly data in the upcoming series, without requiring me to spend days buried under a pile of five-year-old spreadsheets and lengthy tax documents.
To me, the prospect of generating all of this old data sounds like as fun as …. doing five years worth of taxes and bookkeeping all over again. 🙂
Q: “What did you pay for each of these properties? What’s the ROI?”
A: I’ve outlined the Cap Rate (a measure of real estate ROI) for each property in the articles that I wrote about each purchase: House #5, House #4, House #3, House #2, and House #1.
The cap rate fluctuates each year, of course, depending on changes in operating overhead, property value and rent prices. The numbers that you’ll read in those blog posts give you a snapshot of the cap rate that I accepted at the point-of-purchase.
Financial Velociraptor
Thanks for doing this. I’ve been thinking about rental real estate for years but have always felt I don’t know enough to risk it. This should provide a much more realistic picture of what REI looks like in real life.
Paula Pant
@FV — I’m happy to hear that! I hope that after a few months of income reports, you’ll have more confidence in whichever decision you make. 🙂
scar
This was really interesting, thank you! And I totally get you on the travel thing, I’ve decided to spend the rest of the year at home after travelling around too much recently. Here’s to chilling out a little and remaining in one place for a while!
Paula Pant
@Scar — Heck yes! Here’s to planting roots at home sweet home!
Jim Wang
Would you ever consider taking out a loan against the homes you own outright to acquire more property?
Paula Pant
@Jim —
Would I consider it? Yes. Would I follow through? That’s complicated.
Let me rephrase your question: Do I prioritize owning houses free-and-clear? Or do I prioritize leveraging into more properties?
I grapple with a modified version of your question when I decide whether to repay a mortgage vs. save cash to purchase another property. By virtue of NOT accelerating the loan repayment, I’m paying the opportunity cost of otherwise owning that home free-and-clear. If I use my free cash flow to purchase another property (rather than accelerate loan repayment), then I’m making the statement that I prioritize acquiring more properties.
Borrowing against the free-and-clear homes is certainly an option, though this entails closing costs and a slightly higher interest rate. If my goal were to acquire more properties, I’d stockpile cash for a few months and then use that money to either make a downpayment on another rental OR buy a cheap rental in cash.
But first, I’d need to pick a goal: acquisition vs. aggressive repayment.
I’m open to both ideas; I wrote this blog post on Crush Your Mortgage vs. Invest the Cash to describe the sound arguments on both sides.
I decided to take a balanced approach: I stockpile cash into a savings account. Once it accumulates into the $50,000 – $100,000 range, I face three choices: (1) I can pay cash for a rental house, (2) I can make a downpayment on a rental property, or (3) I can wipe out an entire mortgage in one fell swoop.
At that point, I look at the market. If there’s an awesome property up-for-grabs, I’ll jump on that opportunity. This is how I bought House #5 (paid-in-cash with a purchase price of $46,000 and then renovated-in-cash for another $15,000). On the other hand, if there’s nothing desirable available, I’d use that money to wipe out a mortgage. (I haven’t done that yet, but I keep that option in mind.)
Howard
One after my heart: “or (3) I can wipe out an entire mortgage in one fell swoop.” — I did this, and loved every second of the transaction!
Paula Pant
Congratulations, Howard! Wiping out a mortgage with one giant check must be one of the best feelings imaginable. 🙂
Andrew
Very insightful…hopefully you’ll expand on this in future posts or in the course. I’m on the side of leveraging but that’s because I’m only on property #1. I think for me to accelerate the amount of properties, I would have to leverage as saving up the cash would take much longer. I like the BRRR method from BP…buy, renovate, refinance, repeat. The first property I bought was a foreclosure, which I had renovated (managed by an out-of-state broker/property manager)…hopefully I can cash out refinance to buy property #2. At some point, I would like own the houses free and clear though and prioritize that. How many properties are you aiming for or is that a moving target?
Paula Pant
BRRR — Buy, Renovate, Refinance, Repeat — is precisely how I managed my first property. I bought a triplex, renovated, cash-out refinanced, and used that money to buy House #4. (In the meantime, I paid cash for House #2 and took out a private loan for House #3.) Then I bought House #5 in cash.
My original goal was to create $50,000 per year in net passive income (around $4,166 per month). I picked that number because I wanted an external barometer to gauge financial independence; I decided that the median U.S. household income would become my personal barometer. (The median U.S. household income is around $52,000 annually).
Now that I’ve reached that goal, I’m not sure what’s next. Maybe I’ll buy another. Or maybe I’ll just pay down the properties that I already have. Who knows? What’s cool is that I’m not under any pressure. I can take my time, scan the opportunities and take things a day at a time.
Najibah
This is exactly what I do as well! But mine is more along the lines of (1) Buy Cash for Rental Property (2) Downpayment for Rental Property or (3) Partial Payment of a Mortgage. Both my mortgages are in 100,000+
I really love your blog Paula! Please keep writing.
Leah
Very, very cool — I so appreciate you sharing these numbers with us!! Can’t wait to watch the ride over the next few months 🙂 And a podcast sounds amazing!
Paula Pant
Thank you Leah! 🙂
Gwen
Tepid hot tub for the win! It was great to hang out with you & “plus one” this last week. Thanks for all the laughs and inspirations!
ps: eyyy nice numbers 😉
Paula Pant
@Gwen — Remember that time we got into a fight with a weedwacker … and lost?! 🙂 Awesome hanging out with you last week, too!!
Clelie
Paula,
Thanks for the update. While I am -what feels like- quite a ways from having the additional income to become a landlord- I really enjoy hearing your story and progress. Your writing is positive and inspiring. Thank you.
Paula Pant
Thank you, Clelie. I’m happy to hear that you enjoy positive messages. Keeping an awesome, glass-half-full attitude is the primary key to achieving anything, whether the goal is financial, career or otherwise. 🙂
Stefanie @ The Broke and Beautiful Life
Excited for the continuation of this series – LOVE radical transparency 🙂 Happy travels!
Paula Pant
@Stefanie — You know how much I love the word “radical.” 🙂
Elizabeth Colegrove
Paula,
LOVE IT!! I am working on my Real Estate Transparency Post for this month. We had opposite months. Murphy loved my 7 houses this month. 3 of my houses needed repairs totally over $4,000. Of course that was all in a 36 hour repair. Got to love it when an AC system dies and two other houses have $400 repairs! Like you mentioned it is a marathon and the key is to look at other months. Previous months we have had absolutely no expenses. Still I love real estate and love the freedom and passive income it offers.
Elizabeth
Sarah @ the frugal millionaire
Paula, this is awesome and thank you so much for being willing to be transparent! My husband and I would love to own rental properties (he works for a rental property company now plus he’s the best handyman I know, so he could do all the maintenance if he wanted to!), but first need to save save save. I’m working hard at le blog and freelancing to try to up my income to $10K per month. This is in addition to my FT job. If I can get there, we’ll have lots of options as our savings account would be quite large at that point. It’s exciting to think about, and I can’t wait until we are one day where you and Will are!
But I have to say, as much as I enjoy traveling, I am all about being home!! We just moved to Charlotte last year and I love this place so much. Everyday feels like a vacation!!
Elizabeth Colegrove
Sarah,
Good luck!! When we got on a really tight budget. Our first house was bought as a personal property. We lived in it and fixed it up. When my husband was transferred we rented out our property. While we didn’t have roommates for our first house we know friends who did. That allowed them to live almost rent free in their house while they bought another house.
Elizabeth
The Roamer
Cool thanks for the info Paula.
Another of those realms I’ve been curious about. But I’ve read multiple articles that say your spouse should be on board… Mr Roamer isn’t sold on the idea. He believes highly in the myth that tennats will just wreck your place and then be awol. Hopefully this series also shares more on how to get over those inhibition.
Looking forward to seeing more.
PS.I’m in the camp where this is lots of dinero.
Also hope you share how the Cautauqua went. 🙂 I’m not going to lie living vicariously through you. I’m planning to attend that event in 2017.
Mysticaltyger
For some people even one instance of a tenant from hell is one too many. Some people just don’t have the temperament for being a landlord. I know I’m one of them. Your husband may or may not be the same.
Elizabeth Colegrove
Mrs. Roamer,
Don’t count yourself out quiet yet! My husband was not on board at ALL in the beginning to buy real estate. He had no desire to own a home or be a landlord. 4 years later we own 7 houses soon to be 9 by the end of the year. Our story was so long that I wrote an entire post on our experience. The key for us was baby steps. I found that for my husband it was the challenges and the money that sold him. Once he saw that even those tough times were doable he was even more on board because he started to see how our houses would allow us to “afford anything”.
Good Luck,
Elizabeth
Paula Pant
@Roamer —
Oohhh, I’m feeling a “What if my tenants trash my rental?” blog post coming on. That would be a good question to tackle. 🙂
The Chautauqua in Ecuador was AMAZING. It exceeded every expectation. The caliber of the attendees is incredible. It’s a week surrounded by smart, optimistic, ambitious, adventurous people united by shared values and goals.
Everyone there had so much to teach one another. It’s a gathering of peers.
My new friend Gwen, whom I met there, wrote two fantastic blog posts about it: This one and this one. Check these both out. 🙂
Alice
Paula, you should make a post on “What if my tenants trash my place” and “How to avoid them” since most people who are new to real estate are probably worried about this the most! I hope you make one soon!
Bo
Thanks for all you do Paula. I really look forward to your posts. I know I’ll get good info and a good laugh or two to boot.
How many units do you own?
Paula Pant
Thanks Bo! I’m glad you like it!
I own 7 units across 5 buildings (one triplex and four single-family homes). Scroll to the bottom of this page, where you’ll find links to every blog post announcing the purchase (and subsequent numbers) for every property.
Kelly
Paula,
Awesome transparency! Out of curiousity, how many rental properties and which types do you own? Do you suggest single-family homes or apartments as better income properties? Which are easier to manage?
Kelly (from San Diego – bummed I missed you 😉
Paula Pant
Hi Kelly —
“how many rental properties and which types do you own?” — I own 7 units across 5 buildings (one triplex and four single-family homes). Scroll to the bottom of this page, where you’ll find links to every blog post announcing the purchase (and subsequent numbers) for every property.
“Do you suggest single-family homes or apartments as better income properties? — That depends on neighborhood, location, cap rates, and a massive variety of other factors. If you read the blog posts about the purchase of each property, you’ll probably get a better idea of the factors I consider when I’m making these deals. Hopefully that will give you a good starting point.
Cheers,
Paula
Tiffany Alexy
Hey Paula, thanks for sharing! Sharing financial info is super ballsy… it’s kind of like stripping down naked in front a stranger (sorry for the images). Anyway.. I know it takes a lot of courage. I’m a little less than halfway to where you are now, but things are trucking. I have my 3rd property under contract that should close end of November.
So jealous of your lifestyle. I’d love to travel more — I definitely still feel the itch. For now I’m staying put due to a full-time start up gig, but we’ll see what the future holds… I lived in France for grad school and it’s calling me.. soon, soon, when I’ve got a few more properties and am completely FI 🙂
Keep up the good work! Can’t wait to hear what you and J have to share on the podcast — January is sooo far away still!
Paula Pant
Congratulations on getting property #3 under contract!! Wahoo! You’ll be FI before you know it. 🙂
Tanya Braun
Thanks Paula!
I’m so looking forward to your podcast!!!
Also, how would a Canadian fare in your Real Estate course?
Paula Pant
@Tanya — I estimate that about 80% of the course will be universal; the other 20% will be U.S.-specific. The concepts in the real estate course will be able to benefit anyone; specific conversations about laws and taxes will apply to the U.S.
Once the course is built, I’ll have a much more precise answer to that question. That’s the way I’m planning it at the moment.
John Cheng
Inspirational and fun reading about your adventures in REI and otherwise.
Bo
Hello again Paula,
What exactly is content marketing? Can you explain?
Paula Pant
@Bo — Content marketing is the practice of marketing through the use of online content (such as blogs and social media). Here’s a great guide to learning more about it: https://www.copyblogger.com/content-marketing/
Danell
Enjoyed reading this and looking forward to the coming months. I’m very interested in real estate, I’m just not sure if I’ll ever be brave enough to take the risk.
Paula Pant
@Danell — There’s no right or wrong answer. Real estate isn’t necessary. You can build wealth without it. Obviously, it’s been a major part of my own journey, but everyone is different. I’d encourage you to learn as much as you can, and then follow your heart/gut. 🙂
Lotte
Paula,
For me an integral question is how do you balance ‘profits’ vs cash flow? ; being prepared to pay taxes when you have large expenditures that need to be amortized out over years before you recoup expenses and so forth is of great importance to me. (We have an unusual situation involving multiple homes, a trust and Alzheimer’s. All real estate is owned free and clear, just not as investment property.)
Thank you for being so transparent and forthright.
Paula Pant
@Lotte — You hit the nail on the head: We make sure we’re prepared to pay taxes (and I keep hefty cash reserves for any contingency). Although we “suffer” from being unable to write-off an expense in the year that it’s incurred, we also “benefit” from enjoying depreciation from expenses incurred in previous years.
Your CPA is a crucial part of your team. You’ll need a CPA who specializes in working with small businesses/entrepreneurs/real estate investors.
John
Probably the best post I’ve read on your site. I’ve been reading for probably about 6 months now, and thought to myself, not a lot of this seems relevant to me. I don’t know how I would get started with REI. But your transparency in this, like you said, creates the “teaching” rather than “selling” of REI. Probably not the best way I could state that opinion, but I’m sure you get it! Great post!
Paula Pant
Thank you so much, John! I’m glad to hear that this post connected with you in some way. And thank you so much for sticking with me for these past 6 months!
I try to incorporate a lot of non-REI articles, as well, to make sure that I’m offering enough general wealth advice. Your comment is a nice reminder that I need to make sure I continue doing that! I believe people can build wealth, create passive income and develop financial independence without real estate investments; this avenue is absolutely optional. A diligent practice of saving + index funds + tax-advantaged accounts, over time, can yield amazing results.
At any rate, I’m glad that you enjoyed the post, and I hope that this transparency benefits you in some way! 🙂
Matt
Very excited to see the launch of this series. Really appreciate the transparency!
Chad
Awesome post, Paula! Yeah, the complete financial transparency thing is definitely like stripping naked. I’m not there yet … still too chicken:)
Do you set money aside for vacancy expenses or capital expenses? If not, how do you plan for those expenses down the road? It looks like you have pretty good margins, so is it just a matter of taking out of future income? Or from reserves?
I liked your earlier comments about deciding between using cash for new properties or wiping out debt. We’re fortunate to have a big pile of cash right now, and we’re sort of on the same fence. If we find a great deal, we’ll pounce. If not we’ve got some mortgages with high payment to loan balances that we’ll payoff.
I look forward to the podcast and course!
Paula Pant
Hi Chad –
Congrats on stockpiling a healthy heap of cash! As you know, having the freedom and options to decide what to do with the money is a pretty fantastic feeling.
Yes, I set money aside for vacancies and capital expenditures. My rule of thumb is to save 3 months of gross income. Since gross revenue across all properties is just shy of $10k per month, I like to keep $30k as cash reserves on hand at all times. When we complete a major renovation, this can dwindle, but we always replenish it.
Thanks for reading (and thanks for listening to our soon-to-be-born podcast!)
Cheers,
Paula
Bob
Hi Paula,
Thanks for the great blog, and this wonderful article! Im thinking of buying my first rental property (i just started working!), and was wondering how much % downpayment you would advise as minimum? Legally here (i live outside the US) you need to put down 20%, but I was wondering if you think perhaps a bit higher percentage down-payment would be advisable due to the decreased risk associated with the leverage?
Thanks so much!
Paula Pant
Risk is a spectrum.
At 100% downpayment (paying cash), your leverage risk is nonexistent. (You face other risks, of course, but not leverage-related risk.)
At 0% downpayment, your leverage risk is almost maximized. (It could only be worse if you have a negative-equity mortgage or some sophisticated product.)
The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. But where? There’s no magic number or silver bullet. You’ll need to relate leverage risk to the OTHER risks that the property faces. For example:
— How likely is this property to sit vacant for several months (based on the neighborhood and unit quality?)
— How likely is this property to need a major repair?
— How likely are you to have high turnover?
These are all risks, and you need to look at every risk together, as a comprehensive whole. Then decide how much you risk you want to accept, and in what forms those risks should appear.
A Class A house that has low-vacancy risk, low-maintenance risk, etc., could handle higher leverage risk.
A Class C house that has high-vacancy risk, high-tenant risk, etc., may be better handled by curbing the leverage risk.
(Or you might be some other conclusion based on hyperlocal specifics.)
The short answer, then, is don’t try to find some magical number that hits the sweet spot. Look at the whole package; then decide how to handle the risk.
Sherri
Hey Paula: Thanks for sharing your rental income numbers. That will be helpful to most people. I like to think of the income/expense numbers game as: The lower the mortgage payment and the best you can keep your expenses down, the higher the cash flow will be. Also, I’m going to mention this every opportunity I get, I have yet to figure out how to make this work in the southern California real estate market! Here, a down payment alone would equal the cost of the price of a home in Atlanta! By the way, you should not feel you have to post your income from your other work. At least you have the choice to keep it private. I’m speaking as someone whose public sector salary is published annually for the sake of transparency! No choice there. Isn’t that ironic!
Paula Pant
@Sherri — Have you looked into properties in Arizona and Nevada? Las Vegas is FULL of excellent real estate investing opportunities, and it’s only a quick jaunt away from L.A. (in fact, sometimes Vegas feels like a suburb of L.A. 🙂 ) Phoenix is also brimming with great deals, and I’m sure there are also smaller rural towns in both AZ and NV that provide excellent investing opportunities.
The other option, if you want to stay hyperlocal, is to look at multiunit properties rather than single-family residences (SFR’s). Multiunits are purchased by investors, who make decisions based on math. SFR’s are purchased by owner-occupants, who make decisions based on emotion, which inflates the prices. One of my readers, a woman named Tina, invests in duplexes in Portland, Oregon that come VERY close to meeting the One Percent Rule. She probably couldn’t find those types of returns with SFR’s, but duplexes are transacted by a different buyer pool.
Wow, that’s interesting that your salary is published annually. Do your friends and family look it up? That could lead to some awkward dinners!
MarciaB
Hey Paula – at the risk of asking for too much (sorry!) I’d love to see a report for the previous 12 months in order to get a better sense of what a whole year looks like for you. I realize you will be building this (MarciaB, you can have that report…just wait a year!).
I’m interested in seeing if the 50% rule (the one where about 50% of gross rents goes towards operating costs) is about right on your properties.
Elissa
I love your openness – thanks so much. We have three rentals and love to talk all about them. Or rather the cash they generate. But many of our longstanding British friends think this is uncouth. I’m jumping for joy at finding someone who will be so upfront – thanks!
Paula Pant
@Elissa — The benefit of being upfront + transparent is that it teaches others what they can expect. I think society would be a better place if people spoke more openly and frankly about money. But I know that face-to-face, this can be tough, which is why I love this personal finance subculture on the internet.
Nomes
Wow, thanks for baring your financial bones! It’s such a big thing to open up and send this out to the world. I’ve been receiving your posts for quite some time now, but this has really brought it home to me that if I set it up right, I can build a passive cashflow. Let’s see where this takes me
Deborah
Hi Paula! Thanks so much for all the info.
I’m American but living in South Africa and would like to invest in the States.
I’ve read some of your posts about owning rental houses in other states, but what about from another country? Do you think it’s feasible?
I love your blog!
Debbie
Paula Pant
@Debbie — I’m experienced as an out-of-state landlord … so if your question had been, “Do you think it’s feasible to live in one state, but own rentals in another?,” my answer would definitely be yes.
But I have no personal experience owning properties in another country, nor do I know anyone who does. I just don’t have the background to comment on that.
Check out your local real estate investor meetups and groups; you can find these online by Googling the name of your town + “real estate investor” + “organization / association / society.” Meet these people face-to-face and ask them if they own any U.S. properties. That’s where you’ll probably find the best answer.
MrRicket
Thanks for your excellent articles as always, you truly inspire me.
I have started out my own blog to document my journey to Financial Freedom.
Thanks
MrRicket
Marti
Hey, Paula, this was one of my favourite posts so far in your blog. Besides being so jelous of you for your lifestyle I’m extremely thankful for you providing so much free information. Thankyouthankkyouthankyou. We are mentally preparing for a real estate purchase, but first we have to deal with our debt. Cheers from Hungary.
J. Money
YES!! So glad you did this 🙂 Might as well since you leaked all the goodness in our soon-to-be published podcast – woo! That’s gonna be a fun episode… you tell those bozos to hurry up and launch it cuz it’s so fun!
Paula Pant
Yeah, those two bozos need to launch that podcast ASAP! Oh wait … that’s US!! 🙂
Mr W
Hi Paula. We’re a couple from germany and reached FI this year mostly with real estate investments. We really like your blog. We have a very similar strategy.
I am really surprised so many people invest only in the stockmarket instead of looking around for alternatives like RE! We wrote our thoughts on why we don’t trust the 4% safe withdrawal rate here: https://bit.ly/wlcb-swr
Thanks for sharing your numbers and hope to meet you in person as well. Any plans for traveling to Germany?
Ryan
Paula,
Love the content – I think I’ve been reading your posts religiously for going on two years. Still just as awesome.
These financial report card posts are super informative and extremely sobering. Thanks so much for taking the risk to put them on the internet. Do you happen to have any archived info like this from year 1 in your real estate hustle that you could share as comparison? I think the same info, still excluding things like “other incomes”, would paint a really awesome picture of where this whole thing started and how it’s grown when comparing months 1-4 vs. 4 months now.
or something like that. it’s all great. Thanks for all your great information and passion!
Paula Pant
@Ryan — One of the reasons I waited until now to start reporting the data is because we lived in the triplex until July 2015. That makes the accounting messy. Under normal circumstances, people would simply use the data from 2/3rds of the triplex, noting that we occupied the other 1/3rd. But to complicate matters, we lived in the triplex with roommates, so really, we occupied — maybe 1/8th of the building? Or 1/9th of the building? And should that be measured by dividing the number of bedrooms in the building, or is it measured proportionately by square footage? What about home maintenance costs — what fraction of that rightfully should come from our own personal pockets, and what fraction should be included as operating overhead? How about shared utility costs, like water? Our CPA figured this out from a tax perspective, but taxable profits are very different from actual cash flow.
Given these variables, and how “sloppy” the math becomes when you’re living in part of the home (and thus consuming the opportunity cost associated with not renting that portion of the home to a paying tenant), I decided that I couldn’t accurately display educational information about our numbers while we’re living in the triplex. The personal vs. business line is just too blurry.
The best way to report these numbers to the public is by first creating a clean division between “personal” and “business,” by moving out of the triplex. This allows 100% of the income to come in the form of cash (rather than a “free place to live,”) and 100% of the expenses to be pure operational overhead. In short, it makes the numbers simpler, cleaner, and easier to make an apples-to-apples comparison.
That’s why I’ve chosen to start disclosing numbers effective now, and that’s why any data that I’m choosing to share with my readers will start on this date and extend into the future, rather than the past.
(Wow, that was a long comment reply. I should update the post with this excerpt.) 🙂
By the way, thank you so much for reading for the past two years. I’m glad that this blog is helpful and informational (and hopefully entertaining, as well!) 🙂
Mrs. SimplyFinanciallyFree
I am excited to see that you are going to be sharing your real estate numbers as it is great to have a real life example (and transparency) of the cash flow for a real estate investor. I am looking forward to future posts on this topic. Great post!
Aaron Mikottis
Hey, could you break down future reports a little more? I’m interested to see what your net income comes out to per unit. Seeing the total is great and all, but without quantification it’s kind of hard to understand what it all means. For example, if you are making this income off of 10 doors, that’s fantastic. If you are making this off of 100 doors, maybe your path isn’t worth it for me.
Paula Pant
@Aaron — I updated the blog post with this breakdown … please check it out! The update is at the bottom of the article. 🙂
Mr W
We are a couple from Germany and reached FI this year. So many people put all their money in the stockmarket. I like it that you invest in Real Estate as well. We dod that oo among other things . It’s good not to follow the 4% safe withdrawal rate like most of the people trying to reach FI. A mixture beween Real Extate, Index Funds and especially your own business is the safest (not the easiest) way to reach Fi in my view! All the Best!
Andrew
Looking forward to the series, the upcoming course…and the podcast. Just bought my first out-of-state rental property. One thing that has been on my mind are the future capital expenditures (replace roof and other big ticket items)…I’m hoping those things last pretty long. Good to know about not being able to deduct those expenses and having to depreciate based on IRS tables. I generally do my own taxes with tax software as my taxes aren’t that complicated. It will probably more complicated now. Do you use an accountant or do you do it yourself.
Paula Pant
@Andrew — Most definitely use an accountant! You can’t run depreciation schedules on multiple properties by yourself (unless you were a CPA in a past life, or have some other specialized training.) The depreciation gets extra-complicated when you upgrade piecemeal: for example, you replace the roof in Year 1, replace half the windows in Year 2, replace the other half of the windows in Year 3, etc. At that point, you need to turn the taxes over to professionals.
James @ JPCashFlow.com
Love the article Paula. You mentioned that you aggressively saved your income to finance your first real estate deal. Does that mean you used a regular investment mortgage with 25%-ish down to secure the property? I think the part that scares most people about investing in real estate is the financing part. A lot of guys REI marketers out there are constantly selling creative financing as the silver bullet to buying property. What’s your take on that?
Paula Pant
@James — If you check out the blog articles that describe every purchase, you’ll see detailed descriptions of financing for each property. You can find links to all of these by visiting the “About” page and scrolling to the bottom, where I’ve gathered all the links. // As to your second question, creative financing is a last resort, should be used exceedingly sparingly, and only makes sense if the ROI produces an embarrassingly profitable spread, even under conservative estimates.
Rich Schmidt
I’ve been following your blog for a while, Paula, and really appreciate your sharing your financial life with all of us! I’m especially interested in the real estate and travel aspects, so I’m glad to see you start this series!
I’ll echo what someone else said above: I’d love to see you get just a bit more granular with it, breaking it down by property. If you have time for that, I think it’d be helpful. If not, no worries. 🙂
BTW, what software are you using to track your income and expenses? I don’t recognize the chart.
Paula Pant
Hi Rich — I’m glad you liked this article (and this upcoming series)! I updated the blog article to show the income-per-property breakdown. The software that I use is Less Accounting; I also chatted a bit about that in the update. Thanks! 🙂
Cat@BudgetBlonde
Love this idea Paula! Kudos to you for opening the door to your real estate business and sharing the numbers with the world. 🙂
Karen M
Hi, I have been lurking around for several weeks. Thought I would finally say… hi! 🙂
Anyways, I have 6 rental properties all paid cash for (not that impressive, they were dirt cheap) Bought first one 4 years ago. We do well financialy most months, as you know its up and down. Issue is, we are very hands on. We manage, collect rent, handle repairs. Id love to have someone else manage them but I just dont want to pay a big commission. I love to travel and want to more but seems every time we leave town a major problem comes up and we are totally stressed.
Another problem is that many tenants trash the places.. 75%! We think its just a bad town.. we screen people but it never seems to do much. We are selling them off and moving (wanted to anyways) and will hopefully find nicer area with rentals which will in return (I hope) bring better tenants. Considered doing the vacation rental thing when we move to (will be in a vacation destination). Still researching though.
Its frustrating for sure. This is our “full time job”. Otherwise we do side jobs for extra cash. We are I guess semi retired but would love to really figure out how to have rentals and be less involved. I am a bit of a control freak, so would be hard to give someone else control.
Thanks for posting about this and the airbnb info, more advice the better!
Okeoma
Hi Paula,
I’ve been reading your blog for awhile and this post is coming at just the right time because I just closed on my first property last week (a quadplex). I would echo Rich’s question above, what software do you use? I’ve heard you talk (on Stacking Benjamins) about scanning receipts/invoices/etc and filing them on dropbox. Do you have any tips for someone starting out on setting up a system that will scale as I acquire more properties? Thanks!
Paula Pant
Hi Okeoma — I’ve updated the article with (1) a breakdown of the income-per-property, and (2) tips around scanning and filing receipts and bookkeeping. Check out the updated article for the answers! 🙂
Brendan
Great post, Paula. I’m in my mid-20’s and just started my journey towards financial independence a little under a year ago – since then, I’ve purchased 8 units for hardly anything down (I even got paid at closing for one!). If you want any help with your site, I’d be happy to write a guest blog post or two about my experiences and lessons learned, and even bare a little financial skin! Reach out if you’d be interested.
Paula Pant
Thanks for the offer, Brendan! I don’t publish guest posts, but I’d encourage you to start your own blog. It’s a lot of fun! 🙂
Frank Albergo
Paula Pant Person,
PLEASE , enough of these incessant success stories, some of us relish being unsuccessful and want to wallow in our own miserable existence. Then you come along all smily and cheerful – ( disgusting ) Try being a curmudgeon, you might like it.
Want to join this new movement ? The dues are $5.00 a month and in return I will send you a newsletter with everything you need to know to become an absolute miserable worthless SOB ( I’m gonna make a fortune at this ) – Now, “this is Forward thinking” !
P.S. Republicans can join for free, they already have a leg up on the rest of Us !!!
Paula Pant
@Frank —
Wow, $5 per month? My newsletter is free. And much more cheerful. 🙂
Joy
Maybe this is part of those myths that need busting, but do you include a lawyer as part of your team? How often do tenants skip out on the rent or break a rental agreement? How do you deal with that?
Paula Pant
@Joy — Yes, definitely! If you shoot me an email, I’ll send you the name of the attorney that I use. She’s based in D.C. and totally fantastic.
My leases include a penalty of 1-2 months rent for tenants who break the lease early. When we sign the lease, I make the tenants initial that clause, to show that they’ve read it. I also explain the reason WHY I charge this fee: If they move-out early, I have to pay additional cleaning and turnover costs, vacancy costs, and property management fees. Their penalty covers a portion of those costs, but not all of it; the rest comes out of my pocket. Most tenants accept this as a reasonable explanation; this conversation helps them see the situation from both sides. It’s crucial, of course, to have this conversation upfront, so that they can’t later claim that they didn’t know. (And obviously it’s crucial that the details are clearly outlined in the lease.)
I’ve had tenants who are late paying rent, but nobody has ever skipped the rent entirely. (Knock on wood!) That’s largely due to the fact that I only rent to people with decent credit scores and no prior evictions.
If that ever happens, of course, I’d first file a dispossessory warrant, followed by a writ of possession. You can hire a company that specializes in this process. It costs between $200 to $350 (depending on complexity), and they’ll handle the entire process from start to finish.
Kalen Bruce
Thanks for being so transparent and sharing this! Congrats on having a month with that much rental property and that little repair cost. I only own one property, but I want more. I love the business!
Paula Pant
Thanks Kalen! Congratulations on your first rental property — I felt like the first one was the hardest (both logistically and psychologically). It gets easier from here!
Fervent Finance
Awesome transparency. Excited to see the continuation of the series.
Paula Pant
Thanks FF! 🙂
Laura
Hey Paula, are you looking into Vegas real estate these days? I love your rental property run downs but I feel like there are no more deals like that lately. I’m in San Diego, so have been thinking about out of state investing, including Vegas, but it looks like the numbers there are not fantastic either. Should I just wait until the next down turn? Btw, we should meet up next time you are in San Diego! We are like minded individuals, I think =)
Paula Pant
@Laura — There are great deals in Vegas! It’s a fantastic place to invest, and you can definitely make solid returns.
It’s tempting to compare home prices today vs. 2009, and declare that all the good 2009 deals are gone. You could say the same thing about the stock market: everything was cheap in 2009; the stock market is relatively more expensive today.
But 2009 vs. 2015 comparisons don’t matter. The only question that matters is: Would this be a good investment? Would this give me at least 7-9% returns? Yes or no? It doesn’t matter that someone else got a better deal in 2009 … or in 1931, scooping up cheap stocks after the market crashed. All that matters is that the deal YOU are getting makes sense.
The path to wealth isn’t through market-timing. Warren Buffett never buys at the bottom, nor does he sell at the top. He simply buys when it makes sense to buy, and sells when it makes sense to sell.
I’d love to hold a reader meetup in San Diego. Now that I live so close, I plan on visiting there a lot (I have a ton of friends in SD). Stay tuned! 🙂
Laura
That is awesome! I would so love to meetup here in San Diego! Sorry, I didn’t realize you had replied until now.
Are there areas of Las Vegas that you think would be too seedy to invest? I’m interested in multi-family but worry that the places that seem like good deals might have problem tenants.
Same concern when looking at other cities like Memphis that have amazing returns and rental vs. ownership ratios. For an out of state investor, it is pretty scary to get started!
I’d love to invest locally, but returns are not great in San Diego and I’d have to rely on appreciation, which does not help me quit my day job.
Paula Pant
“good deals might have problem tenants” — real estate has the a risk/reward spectrum just like stocks.
Coca-Cola stock is relatively safer: it’s probably not going to crash-and-burn, but it also probably won’t have double-digit growth.
Tesla-Motors-in-the-year-2010 is relatively risker: it might crash (no pun intended), but it also might skyrocket.
Real estate is the same way. You need to figure out your own personal risk tolerance. There’s no “right” answer, just as there’s no correct answer to the question “should I buy Tesla vs. Coca-Cola?”
Here’s a blog post that talks more about this: https://affordanything.com/2014/07/27/aaaand-we-bought-house-5-heres-a-behind-the-scenes-look-including-the-numbers/
That article might help you contextualize the “seedy vs. stable” framework.
Laura
Thanks! Yes, I definitely have to think about the risk/reward profile. I will keep evaluating.
Joan Cassin
Love this… and you! Thanks for sharing and I’d love to hear more about the course to come. Especially the video part, I bet I can help 😉 And I fully expect a unicorn haircutting post soon too!
Paula Pant
Oh my goodness, THE Joan Cassin commented on a blog post?! 🙂
Seriously, I was hoping I’d hear from you … and knowing that you rarely comment on posts makes it all the more special! Don’t worry, a video unicorn haircut demonstration is in the cards. I’ve told most of Will’s family in Colombia about this. 🙂
Jasmine
Hi Paula! Thank you for acting on your game-changing courage to reveal something that will improve countless lives! You’ve already helped change mine and I can only imagine the amount of unprecedented freedom will be created in the new generation largely because of you. I discovered your site this year and after reading every single word on it I am in contract on my first out of state MF:) …Can’t wait for the regular updates, classes and podcast!
Paula Pant
Thank you so much, Jasmine! I really appreciate knowing how much this site has impacted you. 🙂
Alexander @ Cash Flow Diaries
Paula! You are my hero! 😉 I just started publishing my real estate passive income report too. Im only at 2k at the moment but hopefully I will be were you are at within the next 5 years. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Just need to keep building. I actually just bought my 5th rental property last week. Excited about it!
Kurt
Very interesting, and very responsible of you to repeatedly warn readers that the month’s numbers you share is not a typical month. Thanks for opening the books, useful stuff!
Lance @ HealthyWealthyIncome
This has been such a hard discussion in our home. We know folks that love it and we have neighbors who hate it. This last year I helped a family move out that was renting a house and they had holes in the wall, carpet ripped up, and were raising rabbits inside one of the bedrooms. The house was 5 years old and looked 30 years old. I came home and told my wife that was the final straw, we are never buying a rental property. Just haven’t made that jump yet, but I think about it all the time.
Krystina
I would love if you could explain how you use less accounting software…do you set up each property as a separate business so that you can see how each property is doing? We only have one multi unit but I can image it will get tricker as we add more, might be time to learn a program before it gets messy. Thanks!
Paula Pant
@Krystina — In an upcoming article, I’m going to publish an extensive review/explanation of a handful of bookkeeping platforms. I’ll probably publish this in roughly November or December. (To give a short answer to your question, I pile all of the houses into one business, so that the P&L reflects my portfolio as a whole. I also “tag” each house separately, so I can drill-down into every property at a more granular level; this is required for taxes.)
Glenda W
I note that you have sfh and multi-plexes. Would you consider purchasing a condo for rental property? If not, why? I apologize if you’ve addressed this before. Thanks!
Paula Pant
Hi Glenda,
I’d consider buying a condo IF AND ONLY IF the condominium association allowed me to rent the unit to tenants. Most condo associations have rental restrictions — typically, 25% of the units are “approved” to be used as rentals, while the other 75% are not. The only way I’d ever own a condo as a rental would be if that condo was approved.
That said, however, condo associations can re-write the rules and change their minds at anytime. (Sometimes units are grandfathered in; sometimes they’re not.) This poses an additional level of risk. So my second criteria would be that I’d have to buy the condo at a steep enough discount that I would have a reasonable chance of selling it at a gain, in the event that the association bans rental activity.
I hope this helps! 🙂
Rich Rabbit
How I couldn’t have said it better. I want to do the same thing for my site. The way you proposed it was tasteful and I am glad you shared it.
Trevor Mauch
Hey Paula!
I LOVE it!
I’ve been following your blog for a few months and really really love the way you write and the depth of your stuff.
Really cool seeing these monthly reports start too! It’s a liberating feeling isn’t it!? (haha, liberating + a bit of nervousness on being that transparent… but I can tell you that the positives outweigh the negatives).
We started posting monthly “Harvest Reports” on our blog 4 or 5 months back that open up our google analytics and lead stats and it’s been really cool seeing the reaction from people. It also challenges us to be accountable for looking at our stats more often which has helped us improve those numbers.
Anyhow, kudos… you’ve got a fan of your blog here and I look forward to your next posts!
– Trevor
Miranda
Yes! Finally something about supercharge your brain.
Bryan
Paula this is awesome. Thank you for being so transparent. It is such a learning lesson and a testament to how much is possible, if one is to put in the work. This is so very helpful and insightful.
Jackie
I am looking for an experienced Real estate adviser to help me about my problems. I just want to ask if we should sell our home during holiday season, or not ?and what are the risk in selling? Please drop by if you have a free moment. Thank you.
Nitroslims.com
Hi there, I loog on to your new stuff on a regular basis.
Your humoristic style is awesome, keep it up!
Thermomax.org
I really like what you guys tend to be up too. Thhis
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