The FIRE movement is misunderstood. The drama of the last two weeks proves it. The question is, how can we fix this?
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Ohhh we have a new supporter!!
Last week, Suze Orman called FIRE “dumb and stupid.”
“When I was 30 I was dumb and stupid as well, okay?,” she said in an interview with Yahoo! Finance, adding that she’s “pissed off” at people pursuing early retirement.
But since then, she’s taken more time to learn about the movement — and she’s in support.
In a Facebook post titled “What I Hate — and Love — about FIRE,” Suze writes:
“Financial independence – count me in!
“Retire early – yikes, that’s where I jump off the bandwagon.
“… in my world, retirement means not working. Full stop. I was told that this was indeed the focus of FIRE, and that early was 30s or 40s, not 55. The math of that makes absolutely no sense. And I said so.
“But now I realize that I was given bad information. Retire Early for FIRE followers is not about stopping work completely. It is about stopping work that you don’t like, or just do for the money, and finding work that you actually enjoy, and that fulfills you.
“Hello! We are so on the same page. In fact, I have been telling people that they should never work at a job they hate … If you want to retire from a long commute, a corporate hierarchy you loathe and work that you don’t look forward to, I am 100 percent cheering you on. But that assumes your next goal is to segue into a new ‘career’ that speaks to you, and that yes, brings in some money.”
WHOA!! Welcome to the FIRE movement, Suze!
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First, props to her for researching the FIRE movement, rethinking her position, and revising her statements publicly. ⠀
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Second, I hope this is a symbol of what can happen when we listen and ask questions, rather than argue. I spent the interview trying to deeply understand her position rather than argue for my own. I did the opposite of what you see on the prime-time cable networks. And it looks like it worked.
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When you model listening, others tend to listen in return. Maybe not right away. But eventually.
I read her words from London, where I’m traveling with family. I started this trip with the release of her explosive interview, and I’m ending it with her reflective remarks.
I’ve been spending the afternoons strolling through Hyde Park and Kensington Gardens and visiting free museums and doing the things a person does when they have complete control of their time. You know, FIRE life. ⠀
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Her words give me a spark of hope that maybe, just maybe, other people who misunderstand the movement will come around. ⠀
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Maybe more people will reject consumerism because they understand that time is more valuable than money. ⠀
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Maybe it’s time.
This opens up a few remarks:
1) This Isn’t (Just) About Suze Orman.
This story isn’t about Suze. She’s the catalyst, but this story is bigger than one individual. This is about the misunderstanding of the movement.
This misunderstanding seems to stem from the word “retirement.”
“Retirement” is apparently a loaded trigger word. Everyone has their own interpretation of the R-word, which they project onto the rest of the planet.
Jacob from Early Retirement Extreme explains that there are three definitions of retirement:
- To dispose of something, e.g. “we retired that piece of equipment.”
- To grow older and collect Social Security.
- To accumulate enough assets that work becomes optional.
Most people think only about the second definition on that list. And that’s from where the confusion stems.
“When bloggers talk about ‘retirement’ concepts with the intent to reach other people, they have to use the word ‘retirement’ even if their concept doesn’t match the concept of the majority,” Jacob says. “However, many people don’t try to understand before they start complaining … It’s way easier for someone to say that they ‘somehow can’t wrap their heads around it, so therefore it’s impossible.'”
This misunderstanding gave rise to the Internet Retirement Police, a force that monitors the activities of the retired and penalizes anything involving payment. They’ve decreed that volunteering for a nonprofit is a retirement activity, but receiving payment from a nonprofit is not. Writing is a retirement activity, but publishing is not. Taking care of your children is retirement, unless your spouse works, in which case you’re a stay-at-home parent who’s not retired, regardless of your volume of assets or influx of passive income.
Just to be clear.
In order to sidestep this confusion, a handful of people — myself included — advocate dropping the R-word and referring to this concept as “financial independence.” This would allow us to stop having semantic arguments and move onto more important matters like “index funds vs. rental properties, which is more awesome?”
(Answer: Both.)
Financial independence might itself be hard to define (I call it the point at which your potential passive income is enough), but at least this phrase wouldn’t trigger knee-jerk reactions.
But there are two sides to every coin. Sure, “financial independence” wouldn’t trigger an instant backlash, but it might not build intrigue, either. The word “retirement,” for better or worse, is a more evocative term. And so the R-word word appears to be here to stay. The movement is called FIRE rather than FI, and that’s just the way it goes.
This means that some people will immediately gloss over the concept, because they “love their job and don’t want to quit.” They won’t stick around long enough to hear the FIRE movement’s response to their objection — that if you love your job, that’s fantastic. Nobody is going to drag you, kicking and screaming, away from your office. You’ll probably love your job even more when you have $1 million in your portfolio. Why not build that, just in case?
And sometimes, a major celebrity will have an extremely strong response to something that she knows nothing about.
Maybe that’s a good thing. Suze’s remarks became a bullhorn for the FIRE movement. Thousands of people who had never heard of this concept now know about it. And Suze herself has taken the time to dig deeper into the subject and find common ground.
FIRE has spread further, in part, due to the misunderstanding around “retirement” and the subsequent outcry. Many people don’t relate to it at first. But once people dig deeper into the topic, their resistance softens. Including Suze’s.
So that’s the first thing.
2) This is a Culture’s Conversation with Itself.
We cannot have a conversation about the misunderstanding of FIRE without implicitly or explicitly also talking about how we ourselves define FIRE. What is it? Could anyone achieve it? How do you know when you’re FIRE?
What are the principles? Do you have to identify as anti-consumerism, or as a minimalist, or as an enthusiastic investor and entrepreneur? What if you’re not?
What if your “fat FIRE” (a term for a well-funded portfolio) involves massive conspicuous consumption? What if you love brand-new BMWs? What if you really do want to sneeze into Gucci-branded Kleenex?
What if your version of “retirement” really does involve doing absolutely nothing? What if you dream of sitting on the couch eating Cheetos while wearing Spongebob underwear?
What do you need to believe in order to be part of the FIRE movement? Are you obligated to start a side hustle? Is DIY plumbing a requirement? What if you want to send your kids to an expensive summer camp; is that okay? What characteristics unite this community together?
These are the — ahem — “ancillary” questions (bonus points if you catch that reference!!) that stemmed from the FIRE community’s response to the Suze Orman interview.
And that’s beautiful.
Good journalism is a culture’s conversation with itself. This is what the Suze interview unlocked.
FIRE is a subculture. This is our subculture’s conversation with itself. This is our collective exploration of identity.
3) The FIRE is Growing Hotter.
The fact that this interview went viral is made possible by one crucial underlying condition: the FIRE movement is big enough to attract this level of attention.
We are big enough to be criticized. And we are big enough that this criticism turns into a headline. The FIRE is growing hotter.
First they ignore us, then they hate us, hate us, hate us. Then they listen.
4) Accept the Olive Branch
Finally, I know that there’s mixed reaction to Suze’s most recent remarks. Some people have questioned her motives, while others applaud her for learning and adapting her stance.
My feelings? I love that she’s decided to embrace the FIRE movement.
When a person extends an olive branch, accept it.
Accept it with a smile and a hug. Accept it with a dinner invitation. Accept it unconditionally.
Let’s look in one direction only: forward.
Why? Well, try this:
Go to your neighbor’s house and ask if you can watch their TV, since I’m sure you don’t own one, and if you do, you certainly don’t pay for cable.
Turn on cable news. (Then promptly turn it off.) You’ll see arguments, divisiveness, grudges. You’ll see drama disguised as current events.
Let’s be better than that.
Let’s be the haven on the Internet where people listen to a wide array of ideas. Where we ask questions with a spirit of openness. Where we role model the practice of empathy and acceptance. Let’s be the space where humans find common ground.
Let’s welcome our newest supporter to the FIRE community.
And then, let’s turn our attention to more important matters. Like index funds vs. rental properties; which is more awesome? And let’s invest in both.
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I think she is still misunderstanding. Some people don’t work at all and some people do. She’s only for it if people continue to work… She’s trying…
Yeah, it’s important to note that FIRE is not the equivalent of a well-funded career change. FIRE is the point at which work becomes optional. The majority of people choose to continue working, at least in some (often reduced or more flexible) capacity, but the point is that it’s optional.
Yes, with Suze still saying the math “makes absolutely no sense” for FIRE, it’s clear she still thinks you can’t achieve true financial independence (ie: not needing to work for money) before traditional retirement age.
But maybe the real source of her instinctive recoil was the thought that people were dropping out and not doing anything “productive” ever again from a relatively young age? That whole “on the couch watching TV all day with an occasional round of golf” image of “retirement.” (When I think of the many traditional-age retirees I know, I have to wonder how it is these stereotypes live on. They are all so busy and active and contributing to their communities.)
Perhaps as she learns more about it, she’ll take a look at the actual research and see that FI is not an impossible dream. People do of course need to be alert to the potential for bad luck (such as pulling the trigger on FIRE with little spending flexibility and a portfolio at exactly the 25x level, only to have a long bear market kick off, triggering the sequence of returns risk problem). But that is more about setting realistic targets/expectations for FI, not about giving up on the concept altogether.
I was actually a big fan of some of Suze’s earlier work, when she routinely — and bluntly — pointed out to people who called into her TV show that their overspending was killing their financial health and that their debts required their urgent attention. It was amazing to hear people try to convince her they had the money to buy some unneeded bit of pricey consumer bling, when they were deep in consumer debt already. Those calls were excellent mini case studies showing the need to prioritize spending, get real about your resources and exercise restraint.
She also was great at handling the many female callers who had gotten themselves in a mess by repeatedly bailing out deadbeat boyfriends and grown children when they could not actually afford to do that. She sent the powerful message that these callers deserved a stable financial life, and that loving someone does not require putting yourself in the poorhouse. Suze basically gave these folks permission to finally prioritize their own financial needs, and stop feeling guilty about doing so. That’s a big deal. I hope she gets back to that type of work. There are still plenty of people out there who need that type of encouragement.
Great points LKM 😀
BRAVO – Paula this is why you are the number 1 podcast!!!
Still, props to her for trying to at least understand. Better than shutting down the idea completely
I’m sick and tired of the semantics around ‘retirement’ too, so much that I kind of agree it would be best to drop it. However, the latter part of the acronym FIRE is the clickbait, let’s be frank. As you said, it’s evocative, it’s what draws people in. So as much as I hate being click-baity and try not to write clickbait type blog post titles myself, I do understand the value of marketing and making something exciting to people.
Yeah, I’ve looong been on a campaign to call it “financial independence” or “financial freedom” … but it looks like the rest of the community wants to keep the “retire early” piece of it. So I guess that’s what we’ll call it! 🙂
Without much thinking about it, I started leaving out the “RE” of FIRE in some postings lately.
Would love to keep it as the more general description of the whole concept. When it comes to the short time frame ramping up of the Retire Early option, we run into some problems.
As much as we all love the Fat Fire blogs from the well known guys, they often show a tendency to underplay the income side and concente on saving possibilities.
As nice as it is and whatever success rate these plans have, the most important key IMHO is location. It is not by accident that 95% of all Fire blogs come from the US, Canada or Australia. Only there you have these dream income ( & tax) levels needed for the “RE” in FIRE.
In case of candidates not living in the US and with even 60% saving rates making them move forward very slowly, these super-success stories can also turn people away from the concept, if they feel like idiots, while doing everything right, besides living on the wrong continent.
Relaxing the topic to just Financial Independence brings the chance to trigger more people from all over the wold.
So count me in on that 🙂
Senior Crown- I’ve been doing the same thing! Calling it just FI, or financial independence, or FU money. Definitely takes out the connotation that you have to completely stop working, and puts more emphasis on the FREEDOM part.
How is it financial independence if you still have to earn money? How is it financial freedom if you have to blog/side hustle/manage a rental empire?
I’m lazy and I truly do just want to sit on a beach or hang out with friends. Managing a rental empire is no more or less appealing to me than a W2 job, so I begin to wonder what the point is.
First off, I love your podcast and interview style – it is a breath of fresh air in the podcast community!
That said my comment is: why do we have to be a “movement” at all? Why can’t we just be fellow travelers, all walking in the same direction, helping others as necessary and recognizing that our way doesn’t have to be “the way?” Too often, a good thing ends up metastasizing into a cliquish club, where we get to feel righteous and holier than the guy that is doing his thing – which isn’t hurting us one bit – in a way different than us. We’re “the cool kids”, while everyone else is just waiting to be enlightened, in our own minds.
Hello Paula,
Retire early can be misleading. Personally my initial perception was that it meant you have to be rich.
Otherwise, I didn’t understand how anyone could retire early.
But I think the key is getting people to understand that FIRE is all about freedom and having the option to live life on your own terms.
I think almost everyone would be on board with that!
As I said in Episode 154 (the follow-up episode to the Suze interview) — FIRE is about choices. And how could anyone be opposed to having choices? 🙂
Wow – well said, Paula!
I’m a little suspicious of Suze’s motives for changing her tune, but I agree that we should give her the benefit of the doubt and be as inclusive as possible in the FIRE movement (including listening to naysayers). There are many ways to achieve FI and many ways to live after achieving it (lean FIRE, fat FIRE, etc.), which makes it difficult (and counterproductive) to define strict “rules” for the culture. Let’s cast a wide net and embrace “Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations” to build an even stronger movement.
For me, the key principle — which I hope all FIRE community members can embrace and endorse — is achieving liberation from mandatory employment to free up time to learn, grow, and improve the human condition (of ourselves and others). I’ve always turned to Star Trek (see IDIC quote above) for a positive and aspirational vision of humankind’s future. One (of many) reasons I’m drawn to the FIRE movement is its congruity with that spirit, as well as its disruption of the status quo.
Thanks Randy! I agree — the movement should be inclusive, and our primary goal/value is liberation from mandatory employment. It’s a movement around having choices or options.
(Also, I’ve never seen Star Trek! *Gasp!*)
Suze’s ‘turnaround’ is a con; a marketing ploy. First she gets a free wave of advertising from the FIRE publicity by setting herself up as the Big Bad Enemy, then she gets a second hit by doing a big public mea culpa. It’s all salesmanship.
Great article! I enjoyed your interview and follow up interview with Suze. I definitely think it helped us clarify the R within our own community
Two years ago I FIREd, but didn’t learn about the term or this movement till last year. I was so excited to find my tribe and term. Then I quickly learned that I didn’t qualify because I blog… whatever lol 🙂
LOL — ahhh, don’t let the Internet Retirement Police tell you that you’re not FIRE! 🙂 🙂
Great blog! What an inspiration and GREAT LISTENER you are!
Thank you so much, Karen!
I have to admit when I first discovered the FIRE movement I struggled with the RE part of it. I thought yes FI that’s my jam I might have found my people but then came the RE and all the confusion that comes with that… I am not sure I would ever want to “retire” the thought of “doing nothing” doesn’t excite me nearly as much as FI. I toyed with FIOR (optional retirement) which is closer to my own personal goals but of course doesn’t have the same spark…
So now when I think about FIRE I think Financial Independence + Rewarding Employment which to me includes both of the paid and free employment of Ones time ( hobbies and $-generating activities)
That’s a great way to think about it. I also heard someone call it Financial Independence + Reevaluate Everything, which is the power that FI gives you (to rethink everything in your life and make more deliberate choices).
Paula,
I just love this post! You are thoughtful, mindful, insightful, kind, and SO RIGHT! Be the change you wish to see. So Suze misunderstood FIRE, she’s not the first but she was quick to correct her stance once she had more information – bravo!
Let’s not start a war with our ‘religion’, we aren’t looking for power, we are looking to positively impact people.
Let’s educate, encourage, and help – let us not condemn those who don’t yet understand.
Cheers!
Thank you Mimi! Cheers! 🙂
Suze is trying! But I agree w/ Jacob of Retirement Extreme, I retired at 57 ( not exactly early as many FIRE aficionados) but I do get the puzzled look of aren’t you too early for SS. My response was SS was never part of my financial plan!
& No I don’t blog, I don’t do any side hustles,
I have passive income sources & travel a lot,
for now!
Frankly I’m one of those that believes at current burgeoning SS claims the program is not viable as it stands!
That is why theres a major push by the financial media to convince people to hold off collecting til 70 & continue working!!
Thus postpone the day of reckoning for Congress to tinker either with increasing age qualifications by law &/or remove the current low cap limit of paying SS taxes!
Congratulations on retiring at 57!! That’s fantastic!!
“The FIRE is Growing Hotter” Oh yes, very Happy, Opportunity rich, Time rich (HOT) indeed!
It’s growing hotter every day!!
Wonderful article and insight into how we should relate to each other even when we disagree.
“When a person extends an olive branch, accept it.
Accept it with a smile and a hug. Accept it with a dinner invitation. Accept it unconditionally.
Let’s look in one direction only: forward.”
Wise words that extend well beyond FIRE (or FI, or FF, or whatever).
And it is just a label. Who cares? Those of you in the “FIRE” are the minority and so what if the majority don’t agree with the “retirement” word. You think outside the box and buck the trend. To get into the nuances of what the word “retirement” means, that means the FIRE crowd is stooping to their level. They can stew about the “retirement” word on their way to work fighting traffic to a job they “love”, while I sip coffee on the patio planning my day.
Enjoy your retirement. Ha ha.
“They can stew about the “retirement” word on their way to work fighting traffic … while I sip coffee on the patio.”
Perfect. That says it all. 🙂
Agree! I think we are losing the point of the conversation if we can’t learn from others who have a slightly different perspective. The definition of retirement isn’t as important to me the actions to get to financial independance. Thanks for sharing the advancement of this debate
I think the RE in FIRE should stay in there cause its so provocative. It’s shows the possible end result of Financial Independence.
If I had only seen Financial Independence, I would never look into the movement, but when I see the word retire early, I had to stop and research how it was possible to make that happen as it honestly never occur to me before.
Financial Independence was something that I used to think only rich people born with the silver spoon can accomplish, not the average working people. FIRE showed me anyone can accomplish financial independence.
Hi Paula. I really enjoy your blog. I usually just lurk without saying anything, but felt moved by this post to share how much I LOVE your positive, proactive viewpoint about things. It gives me hope for the species. Thanks.
Hope for the species!! WOW!! I’m honored. 🙂 🙂
Thank you, Suzanne. I hope I’m a positive role model who provides an example of unity and optimism.
Apparently “FU Money” movement is not PC :). Even if you love your job, you don’t know what may happen in the future- what happens if the company down sizes, you get sick, or you suddenly no longer love your job? My husband loved his job, then his boss went off the deep-end and is actively trying to screw with him…he no longer loves his job.
This is my response to people that say they love their jobs. I did too. I have a high paying job that I loved…and hated, alternatively. So having the goal of FI (and FU money) has really helped me get through the hard times. But FIRE sounds so good on headlines, and makes for some clever blog names, we can’t just abandon it. (plus, my blog has fire in it, too! I’d have to rebrand, gasp!)
Haha — that would be the REAL headline-grabber!
“The FU movement …”
LOL! 🙂 Maybe that’s what we should call ourselves!! 🙂
Paula,
I’ve always enjoyed all your blogs/podcasts. I’m in my late 40s with 2 daughters and learned about FI(RE) a little later in my life but have been using a lot of the advice of using index funds and real estate investing. I haven’t been as frugal with my expenses but that is the beauty of FI where you can tailor it to your needs. Anything that helps people save for the future and now is really needed in our society. Keep up the great work. I can see from how you handle the Suze stuff you must be a fan of Meditation/Mindfulness.
Thank you Abhay! As you said — you can tailor FIRE to your own needs, interests and goals! There’s a ton of variety within this movement. 🙂
Financial Independence Real Early
Thanks so much for this timely reminder, Paula. I think our misunderstandings around what FIRE could really mean for each of us really hold us back.
Also great to hear you’re in London, that’s my city! Just curious if you’ll be doing any ‘Afford Anything’ meet-ups or events while you’re here? It’d be great to meet you and other ‘Afford Anything’ listeners 🙂
In any case, if you just want to enjoy the city like a proper tourist, that’s perfectly understandable
– hope you have a wonderful stay! And if you happen to be around Notting Hill, there’s a little cafe I would recommend called Jusu Brothers 🙂
My wife had a similar to Suzie reaction when I brought this FIRE idea up. Her idea of retirement is not working. My idea is working a lower pay no pressure job. Lower stress and more time for the rest of my life, yeah, I want that. In a few more years, as our assets pile up, she will come around.
I think Susie’s olive branch is just that, but that the conversation is good for everyone. More people will learn about FIRE. That’s the best part of all of this.
I hit FI and theoretically retired early at 32. I joined the Peace Corps, and now I’m on the other side of that commitment. One of the issues I’m running into now is the key piece of having something to retire to. I went to PC. But that’s only a two year commitment. Now what? I’m working on that answer now, and it may be working again, but in a different way and place.
I’ve been listening to your podcast for the last week from the beginning. I was located in Georgia, and an early 20’s podcast made me laugh out loud while walking through a very somber museum in northern England. You (Paula) mentioned “Georgia, the state not the country”. For the last 3 years, every single time I’ve mentioned my Peace Corps time, I have had to say “the country of Georgia,” “Georgia between Turkey and Russia,” “the former Soviet republic of Georgia,” or “Georgia, the country not the state,” because when I didn’t say one of these, people wondered why the Peace Corps was active just outside of Atlanta. About half the time, they still think Atlanta instead of Tbilisi. Anyway, you should definitely visit Georgia. It’s a wonderful country with so much beauty.
Have a great day!
Oh wow — I vaguely remember making that joke!! I’ll have to listen to my earlier podcast episodes to hear it again. My style as a podcaster has changed so much between then and now.
I’m thrilled that joke resonated with your experience! I’d love to visit Georgia the country one day. 🙂
Who is Suze Orman and why should I care about her opinion?
Is she my mother? Is she my husband? Is she my role-model?
I think it’s silly to work like an idiot for all your life, dreaming about few years of retirement. What can you do at 65 or 70? Chase the doctors for a new prescription?
If you can spend more time with your family NOW, as you are young, DO IT!. If you can retire early, do it!
It’s your life, find enjoyment in it and not in Suze’s ideas about early retirement 😀
“Turn on cable news. (Then promptly turn it off.) You’ll see arguments, divisiveness, grudges. You’ll see drama disguised as current events.”
Yes, exactly. It’s why I don’t regret having axed cable. The perpetual arguments serve no greater good and have caused more divisiveness than this country needs. I’m glad you’re leading by example and extending an olive branch. My mother and grandmother always taught me you catch more flies with honey, so I support embracing others instead of shunning them. I missed Suze’s later statements, so I’m happy to hear she agrees with the general idea of our movement — I thought it was strange that she was so dismissive of a movement that saves instead of spending every last cent. Good for her, regardless of her motivation, for coming around.
I would say “Thank You” to Orman. To me, she did the whole community a huge favor. I am of course referring to the old axim of all publicity is good publicity. With speakers like you, Paula, though, you make the whole community look good. I work with a lot of younger engineers, and I am trying to expose this to them as I wish it had been to me at their age.
For my wife and I, this movement is about piece of mind. In a few years, we should be able to stress a lot less as our savings should hopefully be fairly high, and we would be close to our FI moment. As it stands today, we could do it if we moved to a low income place. We like the NY area, and that’s where our family is for the most part. As they say, though, who knows what tomorrow will bring.